[MPlayer-cvslog] r26411 - trunk/libmpdemux/demuxer.c

[Diego Biurrun]

On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 08:51:17PM +0200, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 05:23:32PM +0200, Diego Biurrun wrote:
> > On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 12:58:02AM +0200, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 07:49:24PM +0200, Diego Biurrun wrote:
> > > > I know most of them personally, like them and the feeling is mutual.
> > > > Nonetheless nowadays MPlayer is being developed by a new generation
> > > > of people. That does not mean that the contributions of those people
> > > > are insubstantial or that not appreciated.
> > > 
> > > Yes but it also does not mean that the experience the "old generation" has
> > > collected over the years should be ignored like it is. The people not being
> > > against uoti are new people who do not yet have the same
> > > experience reimar, roberto, iive, ... have in respect to maintaining a
> > > large project with many developers working, joining and leaving ...
> > 
> > Reimar never spoke in favor of removing Uoti.
> 
> Not litterally i think, but iam pretty sure he said something to the effect of
> him being in favor of uoti being removed if theres no other solution being
> found ...

.. i think .. pretty sure .. something to the effect of ..

He did not say anything like that literally, nor implied.  I was the one
to talk to him personally, not you.  Let Reimar speak for himself, do not
make guesses or assumptions about his opinions.

> > > Or the same about commiting with no warning to code actively maintained
> > > by others. Even if one ignores what the "old generation" says, just looking
> > > at the recent months shows how such commits get everyone near boiling.
> > > Even you go crazy if iive just changes xvids spelling.
> > 
> > I did not "go crazy".  I'm old enough to be able not to freak out over
> > such silly provocations.
> 
> You always freak out about any flies from ivans direction.

No, I think that nowadays I can remain pretty calm when he tries to
provoke me.  You do not have the dubious pleasure of sharing IRC
channels with him and don't know half of what goes on between us.

To say that Ivan and I do not get along well is an understatement.  He
has personally attacked and insulted me many times.  I'm through with
him.  That said, I have to put up with him around here and try my best
to ignore him.

> > > > Note that many many outsiders consider the environment around FFmpeg
> > > > very hostile.
> > > 
> > > Note that many many pigs consider birds ugly.
> > > no i have no evidence but neither do you.
> > 
> > It seems that you move in FFmpeg-related circles only then.  I have
> > talked to people from many other multimedia projects and distributions.
> > FFmpeg is very often viewed as a harsh and difficult environment with
> > which communication is not easy and flames abound.
> 
> harsh/flames/... != hostile

That's a matter of perception.  I do not see FFmpeg as hostile, but it
surely can be intimidating for newcomers.  And I have spoken to many
people who do consider FFmpeg hostile.

> > > > So people are willing to put up with more hardship or simply are
> > > > forced to work with FFmpeg one way or the other because they cannot
> > > > switch to an alternative.
> > > 
> > > You should probably post a detailed list of what you think can be improved
> > > to ffmpeg-dev
> > 
> > I'm working on it all the time when I am in contact with other projects
> > at LinuxTag, on IRC or wherever.  You may have noticed the Debian patch
> > I forwarded to ffmpeg-devel.  I have been working with the new FFmpeg
> > Debian maintainer these past few days reviewing their patchset.  With my
> > help he could determine that half of the patches are no longer necessary
> > and delete them.
> 
> Speaking of that, i really would appreciate if all distros which package
> ffmpeg could send their patches to ffmpeg-dev.
> It would be of mutual benefit
> weeding out bad patches/bugs (which ruin ffmpegs good name as well as the
> distros) is mainly what iam thinkibng of ...

I 100% agree.  At every opportunity I get I try to work with packagers
of FFmpeg and MPlayer, try to make them send patches upstream and
generally stay in contact when any issues appear.

> > > > > id like to point out how you complained about iive changing the
> > > > > spelling of xvid. Which honestly is totally irrelevant compared to
> > > > > changes to the code.
> > > > 
> > > > I did not complain about Ivan changing the spelling.  I complained about
> > > > Ivan reverting my commit without prior notice.  If he had reverted just
> > > > the files he maintains - fine.  But he chose to revert the files I
> > > > maintain as well.  He did it on purpose.  This is obviously a
> > > > provocation.
> > > 
> > > hypocrite ...
> > 
> > WTF?  Have we descended towards throwing around insults already?
> 
> didnt you say something about being old enough to not be provocated
> easily just a few lines above?

No.  I was talking about not being provoked by Ivan, at least not as
easily as I used to.  That does not mean that I do not find being called
a hypocrite by you insulting.

So for the record: I do not consider myself a hypocrite and find the
allegation very insulting.

> Besides, hypocrite applies because you complain against iive while you really
> did nearly the same to him.

No, I did not.  I did very much *not* revert his commits without any
discussion or expressing dissent.

> And it was actually intended to be more funny than insulting but ohh well ...
> Iam just ommiting the smilies because the ambiguity is funny in itself

Well, if this discussion is not serious, then I suggest we close the
issue and be done with it.  You are the one here behaving as if his life
depended on the issues we are discussing.  How you can start being funny
now and expect others to understand your hidden jokes is beyond me.

> > > > How come that you don't have an issue with such behavior?
> > > 
> > > Lets see.
> > > * I do not know at all if Xvid or XviD is more correct. I do know it was
> > >   XviD once in the past so this one can not be completely wrong now.
> > > * You changed the spelling to Xvid in files maintained by you and ivve
> > > * iive changed the spelling back to XviD in files maintained by you and ivve
> > > * he did the same you did, you started
> > > * you broke the policy he reverted the commit which broke the policy
> > > No the whole was not ideal but nothing bad happened we are just back at the
> > > start and have another chance to find a solution. If the spelling bothers
> > > you. Just start a discussion on mplayer-dev about it, like it should IMHO
> > > have been in the first place already.
> > 
> > Are you seriously suggesting that we should waste time on dev-eng
> > discussing which way to spell Xvid?  When this was hashed out and
> > committed to the rest of the documentation in 2006?
> 
> If not then why are you complaining about iive changing it? Either it
> does matter or it does not ...

I'll assume that you are neither playing one of your weird jokes again
nor being deliberately dense and repeat my explanation:

I'm not complaining about Ivan making the change.  I'm not even
complaining about Ivan reverting my changes to his files.  However, when
he reverts the changes I just did to files I maintain without prior
notice or discussion and without even making me aware that he disagrees
with my changes, then this is obviously and knowingly being done against
my wishes and intentions and is bound to provoke and stir up
controversy.

I ask you again: Why is such behavior not objectionable to you?

This is being done deliberately, Uoti did not act deliberately in this
way.  He did not expect any controversy.  The same cannot be said about
Ivan.

> > The problem I have with you here is that you are applying double
> > standards.
> > 
> > On the one hand you insist on the strictest possible interpretation of
> > the policy for issues that you care about like separation of whitespace
> > changes from other types of changes and demand draconian punishments for
> > offenders.
> > 
> > On the other hand you are very lax yourself about issues you consider
> > less important like adding full license headers to files or updating the
> > documentation to match your code changes.  You have behaved this way
> > long before this incident, don't tell me it is a result of it.
> > 
> > That you then go on to call me - the person that goes out of its way to
> > split commits to your liking, writes the documentation for you, etc. -
> > a hypocrite is galling and does add insult to previous injury.
> 
> Well you care about spelling,  consistency, licenses, ...
> i care about clean commits, ...
> 
> I do not care much about spelling,  consistency, licenses, ...

Correct.

> You do not care much about clean commits

Nonsense.

> Now you complain about me applying double standards while you do the very
> same, just the other way around.

No, I do not have double standards.  I adapt to your wishes, as you very
well know.  I have always done everything exactly according to your
wishes in FFmpeg and changed whatever you did not like.  I commit
nothing to MPlayer that you object to.

I am willing to give everybody a bit of leeway and the benefit of the
doubt.  I even go the extra mile and do extra work *myself* to make
everybody happy.

You, on the other hand, want to see heads roll the second somebody does
something you disagree with, even if it is totally minor, as in this
case.

At the same time, you violate the same set of rules that you insist on
continuously.  But only the rules that you do not care about of course.
That others do care about them is irrelevant to you.

This is the very same behavior that you accuse Uoti of.  And that,
Michael, is applying double standards.

Diego