[FFmpeg-user] Codec copy with -ss before -i and after -i is not documented [was: Re: Why are these different?]

[Jim DeLaHunt]

Paul:

On 2024-02-11 13:42, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> Codec copy with -ss before -i and after -i is not documented that it gives different results because
> once you do not decode everything from start you basically can notexpect to get always (for any
> container and for any input) frame-accurate results in both cases.

I think you are saying something important here, but I am having a hard 
time understanding what you mean.  This sentence uses the word "not" 
three times. I get lost.

Let me see if I can figure it out. Is this what you mean, Paul?

> [Definition of "codec copy operation": the copying of content from one 
> file to another by demuxing packets from the input container (file), 
> then muxing them unchanged into the output container (file). The "-c 
> copy" option tells FFmpeg to perform a codec copy operation.]
>
> The FFmpeg documentation does not say that FFmpeg gives different 
> results if you do a codec copy operation with a "-ss" option before 
> the input argument, compared to a code copy operation with the same 
> "-ss" option after the input argument. Nor does it say that FFmpeg 
> gives the same results.
>
> It is unreasonable to expect FFmpeg to give frame-accurate results 
> from a given "-ss" option both when the option is before and is after 
> the input argument, for every container and for every input. Instead, 
> one should expect that for some containers and for some inputs, and 
> for some cases of the "-ss" option before or after the input argument, 
> FFmpeg will give results which are inexact in the number of frames 
> passed to the output.
>
> But one should not expect the FFmpeg documentation to be clear about 
> which cases have frame-accurate results and which do not. The FFmpeg 
> documentation leaves any statement of results being the same or 
> different based on the position of the "-ss" option. The result of 
> this is that the FFmpeg documentation does not need to engage with the 
> task of clearly describing which cases give frame-accurate results and 
> which do not.


I think Mark Filipak asked a reasonable and (eventually) well-defined 
question. This thread has so far been 30 messages. I get the impression 
that the answer to his question is:

> Because the FFmpeg project includes different implementations for 
> different containers, input types, and "-ss" option positions, but:
>
>  1. The project does not require any of the implementations to give
>     frame-accurate results for the codec copy operation, (though it is
>     allowed), and
>  2. The project does not require the documentation to describe whether
>     the results are frame-accurate or not, and
>  3. The project does not require the documentation to confess either
>     #1 or #2.
>  4. Because of #1, any answer to whether or not a particular case is
>     frame-accurate, or the the way in which it is inaccurate, or why,
>     must come from studying the code.
>
> So one should not expect a person on this list to have the answer 
> easily at hand. Mark's answer must come from studying the code.
>

I suspect Mark will not be delighted with that answer.

     —Jim DeLaHunt